The Savior (A Gene Tale)

The Savior


Why do we look for heroes? Why are the biggest and most important movies of our generation about super heroes?

Is it possible that we create savior myths because of evolution?


Think about it and let's discuss.
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Comments

  • If an organism evolves that means it has to make a change that sets it apart from the other members of its species. This change makes the organism better ("super" as it were) and this change or mutation is something that we believe can help the rest of us survive.

    Yeshua/Jesus was complicated in this sense because different people wanted salvation from different things. Israelites wanted a king to save them from Rome. But Romans wanted a savior to forgive them for their deeds (and possibly the power they had by means of war or causing suffering upon others). The Jewish leaders were content and could therefore sell their 'savior' to Rome as a traitor.

    And like an organism in the process of evolving, Christians rushed to spread the "spiritual genetic code" of Jesus to all of humanity, or at least for all those who would accept it.

    For all who wouldn't accept it, Christianity told us they would die out, leaving only the Christians who believed.

    Another point of interest is the serpent because of the Bronze serpent in Numbers 21.

    NASB

    6 Then the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. 7 So the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, because we have spoken against the Lord and against you; intercede with the Lord, that He will remove the serpents from us.” And Moses interceded for the people. 8 Then the Lord said to Moses, “[a]Make a fiery serpent, and put it on a flag pole; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, and looks at it, will live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent and put it on the flag pole; and it came about, that if a serpent bit someone, and he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.

    This is often seen as a precursor to Jesus. You could liken sin to the poison from a poisonous fruit or a poisonous snake.

    Now let's note here that God is the one who sends the serpents just as he sent the serpent, just as he is the one who created the poison to begin with. And the people need to be saved from God, acting in jealous revenge over people using their free will... or in this case... freedom of speech. But let's make a note of that and put it aside.

    Jesus is this new Adam... the one who is immune to the virus of sin, and who can spread this immunity by vaccinating the human mind and consciousness with love. Our problem is not loving each other. Us obeying God isn't a problem except that God always was a construct for the "best of" humanity. What God wanted was what the elite told the people God wanted. So how we treated each other had very real consequences to how we treated (or rebelled against) the elite.

    The elite, because they are rich, are the ones who understand wealth and power. They've had it for generations and they know we want it. They are therefore always in the position to offer this power/wealth just as the serpent did.

    In fact, we would be blind to our own "nakedness" (poverty) if it wasn't for the existence of seeing rich people and hearing about their lavish lifestyles. Many people wouldn't even steal or sell drugs or kill others in robberies, if they were kept in total ignorance that there were people who had millions. But those people might as well live in an untouchable city in the sky because the poor almost NEVER go after the rich.

    And the rich cannot protect themselves by seeking the love of the poor so they have to use fear and the threat of death and destruction that they can afford to back up.

    So again... when we understand human motivations we can see how the rich would be motivated to create what we call God. Because if they can make us listen to God we will accept our place as poor people who need God, and by extension, those God has chosen and appointed to rule over us. Why do you think evangelicals are so loyal to Trump? They believe that he was chosen by God. So even though Trump is a liar and a scam artist, they believe in him and treat him as they would a savior.

    So then Trump's "spiritual genetic code" gets passed down through his tweets and the cult eats it up because they believe in him and believe that he wants the best for them like a father would for a child. It's a form of love they're seeking but perhaps for their culture they are used to a "strong" leader who inspires fear in others.

    And we can even see how Q anon became a false prophecy, making Trump into a hero that would destroy the deep state and the pedophile rings of satanic rich democrats who are also socialists.

    Why do people follow him? Is it the same reason people followed Hitler?

    What is the social psychological mechanisms that make this possible?

    Again... is it evolution?

    Have we decided that either we should evolve based on love or if that doesn't work then we should evolve (and destroy the weak) based on fear and might?
  • ZealotX wrote: »
    The Savior


    1. Why do we look for heroes?
    2; Why are the biggest and most important movies of our generation about superheroes?
    3. Is it possible that we create savior myths because of evolution?

    Think about it and let's discuss.[/quot]
    1. For visceral reasons, I'd imagine. As a kid I was into the James Bond thing. Others too, but JB was way up there.
    2. Why? Sheeeeeit. Gotta be kiddin' me. What teen age boy of about 15-18 WOULDN'T want to be him?
    3. All the pussy he scored?! And all over the WORLD too! His rides as well? Threads. Lyin', stealin', did I mention a lotta pussy? Beating the shit out of mofos, getting away with it. Killin' bad guys...and getting away with it, too. Badass theme music, and just fuh'you on top of that!
    4. Hmmmm...evolution? I wouldn't doubt it. Yeah, evolutionary? I wouldn't bet against it at all. Both good guys, bad guys, too. Average mofoze that took a chance and "got away" with it...whatever IT was. Starts young, too. Marble shooter...baseball/football player...the best class clown... (give the class clowns some dap)...the "Waldo"-types in school...the JP types...borrow $$$ from that mofo...fuck'em...don't pay it back...do other shit for him. Gets his assed kicked...jump-in and help him out of it....team up and rob the cocksucker that beat him up. Fuck him, too.





  • Uh oh...I think I see where this is going with Neo in the mix. Truly, scenatist. Think about it, even if just another hobby.
  • edited December 2020
    ZealotX wrote: »
    If an organism evolves that means it has to make a change that sets it apart from the other members of its species. This change makes the organism better ("super" as it were) and this change or mutation is something that we believe can help the rest of us survive.

    Yeshua/Jesus was complicated in this sense because different people wanted salvation from different things. Israelites wanted a king to save them from Rome. But Romans wanted a savior to forgive them for their deeds (and possibly the power they had by means of war or causing suffering upon others). The Jewish leaders were content and could therefore sell their 'savior' to Rome as a traitor.

    And like an organism in the process of evolving, Christians rushed to spread the "spiritual genetic code" of Jesus to all of humanity, or at least for all those who would accept it.

    For all who wouldn't accept it, Christianity told us they would die out, leaving only the Christians who believed.

    Another point of interest is the serpent because of the Bronze serpent in Numbers 21.

    NASB

    6 Then the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. 7 So the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, because we have spoken against the Lord and against you; intercede with the Lord, that He will remove the serpents from us.” And Moses interceded for the people. 8 Then the Lord said to Moses, “[a]Make a fiery serpent, and put it on a flag pole; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, and looks at it, will live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent and put it on the flag pole; and it came about, that if a serpent bit someone, and he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.

    This is often seen as a precursor to Jesus. You could liken sin to the poison from a poisonous fruit or a poisonous snake.

    Now let's note here that God is the one who sends the serpents just as he sent the serpent, just as he is the one who created the poison to begin with. And the people need to be saved from God, acting in jealous revenge over people using their free will... or in this case... freedom of speech. But let's make a note of that and put it aside.

    Jesus is this new Adam... the one who is immune to the virus of sin, and who can spread this immunity by vaccinating the human mind and consciousness with love. Our problem is not loving each other. Us obeying God isn't a problem except that God always was a construct for the "best of" humanity. What God wanted was what the elite told the people God wanted. So how we treated each other had very real consequences to how we treated (or rebelled against) the elite.

    The elite, because they are rich, are the ones who understand wealth and power. They've had it for generations and they know we want it. They are therefore always in the position to offer this power/wealth just as the serpent did.

    In fact, we would be blind to our own "nakedness" (poverty) if it wasn't for the existence of seeing rich people and hearing about their lavish lifestyles. Many people wouldn't even steal or sell drugs or kill others in robberies, if they were kept in total ignorance that there were people who had millions. But those people might as well live in an untouchable city in the sky because the poor almost NEVER go after the rich.

    And the rich cannot protect themselves by seeking the love of the poor so they have to use fear and the threat of death and destruction that they can afford to back up.

    So again... when we understand human motivations we can see how the rich would be motivated to create what we call God. Because if they can make us listen to God we will accept our place as poor people who need God, and by extension, those God has chosen and appointed to rule over us. Why do you think evangelicals are so loyal to Trump? They believe that he was chosen by God. So even though Trump is a liar and a scam artist, they believe in him and treat him as they would a savior.

    So then Trump's "spiritual genetic code" gets passed down through his tweets and the cult eats it up because they believe in him and believe that he wants the best for them like a father would for a child. It's a form of love they're seeking but perhaps for their culture they are used to a "strong" leader who inspires fear in others.

    And we can even see how Q anon became a false prophecy, making Trump into a hero that would destroy the deep state and the pedophile rings of satanic rich democrats who are also socialists.

    Why do people follow him? Is it the same reason people followed Hitler?

    What is the social psychological mechanisms that make this possible?

    Again... is it evolution?

    Have we decided that either we should evolve based on love or if that doesn't work then we should evolve (and destroy the weak) based on fear and might?

    I have thought this all alone... Yet, most folks won't accept this to be truth, etc. Yet they choose to live in religious fear of their God, etc. While trying to exempt themselves from the practicing deceivers and haters on this planet. Their good book is full of violence, deception, hate, death, etc. Yet they still call it da good book, etc.
  • Got the prob fixed...Gracious.

    *************************

    Q: Why do we look for heroes? Why are the biggest and most important movies of our generation about super heroes?

    A. Within, first.

    B. Our generation? Like every 10-20 years or so? Hard for me to do. I've sat through The Great Train Robbery (1903) to what's come-out fairly recently. Went to film school, pot'na. The whole chingadrea, mas o menos.

    "Is it possible that we create savior myths because of evolution?".

    Pretty much. Thor. Hercules. REAL OLD SHIT...like "WTF is THAT that comes up every fuckin' day and goes poof by nightfall and that other thing that appears when things go dark?".

    "Think about it and let's discuss.".

    Indeed. Let's do. Take it awaaaay. It's showtime...and you're the ringmaster.

  • I'll leave you atheist to your conversation. It is such a profound oddity that you atheist spend your wheels and times trying to dispute a God you don't believe exist, that alone is soooo ironic in my opinion.

    I don't believe in Santa Claus, tooth fairy, etc, therefore, I don't waste my time orbiting around the notion that these fairy tales are fairy tales, instead they don't occupy any space in my brain. You atheist come up with conversation after conversation trying to dispute what you claim is non-existence.

    Odd also, many atheist believe in Aliens, but, you all believe God can't possibly exist. *scratching my head* on that one.
  • Zee...

    Now, my more serious reply:

    1. Why do we look for heroes?
    To look for heroics in ourselves, and other mortals that deserve it.

    2. Why are the biggest and most important movies of our generation about superheroes?
    Inspiration, in short, would be my best supposition..

    3. Is it possible that we create savior myths because of evolution?
    Well, one thing seems certain...as humanity has evolved and has been for a long, long time. The evolution keeps on it's roll and no sign that it's slowing down and/or disappearing altogether.
  • I'll leave you atheist to your conversation. It is such a profound oddity that you atheist spend your wheels and times trying to dispute a God you don't believe exist, that alone is soooo ironic in my opinion.

    I don't believe in Santa Claus, tooth fairy, etc, therefore, I don't waste my time orbiting around the notion that these fairy tales are fairy tales, instead they don't occupy any space in my brain. You atheist come up with conversation after conversation trying to dispute what you claim is non-existence.

    Odd also, many atheist believe in Aliens, but, you all believe God can't possibly exist. *scratching my head* on that one.

    Stop all dat guessing... who here claimed to be a atheist? Seems like U are assigning roles for thread writers to play, etc. I never claimed da be an atheist, have I? You put that label on me. with dat "You atheist come up with...." You keep defending a deity that you have never witnessed, etc. A deity that can't or doesn't want to be seen, etc. Am i right? Your scriptures were very careful in protecting this unseen God, etc. Only after your death might you see this deity, etc. Even your fabled Moses never gazed upon this deity. So what;s the problem why can't humankind view this God? That's if he truly exists. You have witnessed nothing, no god, no more living codes, no jesus, etc. It's all invisible! Only after your death will you know! Who's playing who here?
  • GFB and BR,

    GFB: I have thought this all alone... Yet, most folks won't accept this to be truth, etc. Yet they choose to live in religious fear of their God, etc. While trying to exempt themselves from the practicing deceivers and haters on this planet. Their good book is full of violence, deception, hate, death, etc. Yet they still call it da good book, etc.


    Yeah... but here's what BR is missing when she wonders why an atheist like myself would be talking about these issues.

    DNA...

    DNA isn't just a picture of who we are now, but also what we were generations upon generations ago. This is how we can trace our DNA back in time to a previous ancestor and region. DNA is like the book of our own personal history. But ours is the history of where we came from. Some people have more European in their DNA than others just like the bible has a mixture of different cultures and ideas in it. I don't require that my DNA only include the genetic information of people who I agree with. If they didn't exist though... I wouldn't exist either. If the bible didn't exist you wouldn't be here either.

    So let's say that one of my ancestors was a rapist. That doesn't make me one. So part of his life has nothing to do with the genetic code he left behind. I certainly wouldn't learn morality from him but my body would learn how to have physical characteristics and features partially based on the influence of his physical characteristics and features.

    The same is true of the bible. It is history. That being said, it is just like all other history. It is told from a certain perspective and could include lies, propaganda, or exaggerations and other forms of artistic license. If a group of Mayans sacrificed a virgin to a volcano then in their minds it wasn't a volcano. It was (insert god name here). That doesn't change the fact that a girl was sacrificed.

    It's not scientific to deny the girl was sacrificed just because we know that their god didn't exist. They believe it did. It's our job to understand WHY. And in doing so we don't need to invalidate the whole bible or the entire history of whole human civilizations. Is that really what we want to do? Instead we should play the role of archaeologists, see the physical evidence, and then determine from a sociological stand point, what was actually going on.

    Maybe God didn't tell Abraham to sacrifice his son. But maybe he was inspired by another culture, maybe the Canaanites, to think that human sacrifice was okay and was somehow required. We can look in many cultures and see human sacrifice. So where did it come from?

    When you don't have answers to these questions then you leave open these "gaps". And as you know, the gods of humanity are gods of the gaps.

    And because... the bible is an inaccurate view of someone's history there are things, both good and evil, that are valuable simply because we can learn from them. So yes... it can be called the "good book" in my opinion. But you have to be someone who can learn from it. By taking it as absolute fact they are simply confusing what they should be learning. The bible should be consumed like food. When you consume food the food integrates with your body. Your body keeps what's good and useful and what does it do with the rest? The rest is BS so it is rejected as waste. Feel me?

    Christians consume it but they too often integrate the wrong things and therefore cannot absorb the vitamins and minerals of spirituality. This is why everyone's experience isn't the same and why someone more intelligent and intuitive like BR can defend it because BR's experience and "biblical metabolism" is higher than the average Christian.

    Although I am 100% atheist I have already consumed the bible and integrated its vitamins and minerals enough to help me become the person I am. It's story is part of my story because my knowledge, wisdom, and intelligence is forever altered because of the bible's influence. But as I continue to consume the bible I see and integrate more because there are less uneaten good stuff, allowing the waste to be more prominent and my body no longer craves it so it rejects it.

    BR and many other Christians may believe they are good people because of the bible. What they don't sometimes realize is that they are good people in spite of the bible because in spite of all the bad things that one should never copy, they simply learn the good things to apply in their lives and learn not to do the bad things. BR isn't going to stone you to death because that's not who they are regardless of what the bible says in the OT. BR will use the NT to balance out that OT programming that the Israelites were under. A savvy intellect will therefore naturally be more influenced by the positive things in the bible than the negative things. That's what they're attracted to so that's what they are more prone to find.

    The same is, of course, true for Greg. Because Greg is also intelligent and mentally fit, he too can get whatever he's looking for out of the bible with or without condemning it.
  • @Greg

    "To look for heroics in ourselves, and other mortals that deserve it."

    Why look for something if it isn't lost?

    "Inspiration, in short, would be my best supposition.."

    Why do we seek inspiration?

    "Well, one thing seems certain...as humanity has evolved and has been for a long, long time. The evolution keeps on it's roll and no sign that it's slowing down and/or disappearing altogether."

    Would you agree that there is a need to evolve and thus we continue to do so?
  • First Zee, this be in order of your questions, and not my thesis, OK? Here we go...
    1. Because one might just might have lost it mathematically/statically. Inspiration for any given motive isn't a slam dunk in all situations,
    2. I can only account for my own with surety, and guess/surmise for others. With that said, as my career is a creative one, there have been times in it when I NEEDED a boost, so to say, for any given project. Example: The Lord High Executive Producer Pricks will comeback to the writer/writers with some "GREAT!" idea shit that should be made upfront or closer to the middle of the of the project's FIRST run-through in the rehearsal stage. But no, those pencil dicks will do it a during the initial and more shooting-process. Now, it's a cluster-fuck like. "If you do that. you'll breakup the continuity. And, if you do this along with that you've pretty much have a very pissed of audience of exe-types wondering if you, the producer, possibly the whole cast will back to amend your stupidity, and on crack and smack just to cope with the bullshit, that's why.
    3. "Would you agree that there is a need to evolve and thus we continue to do so?". Hell fuckin' YES, in general until I read of and/or heard what the grand plan was. What I mean Z., we (mankind) have often enough not seen or throughout the effects of grand-plan. Here's just an Idea and scenario of just what can happen is shit goes south.
    Hold Up...coming up in an email to me. BRB.







  • Hasn't come-in with the action-motion of the subject but here'ya go all the same...
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  • Greg, I enjoy your writing.

    So from the answers you gave I would surmise simply this...

    NEED.

    What we do is a reaction to our needs. Therefore as our needs change, we change with it. Because our needs are dynamic and not static, God changes too. Why? Because we NEEDED him (and not just him but different cultures needed and therefore had other gods) we created him.

    It is the same reason why many people cannot shake the idea of God even when it makes no sense, even when it requires them to believe in magic, even when it forces them to ignore logic, even when it requires that they accept slavery and treating women like property.

    We humans often cannot see beyond our own needs. And so often choice is an illusion and there is only Causality.

    We like to think that we are the effect of God's creation. But God never needed humans. Humans needed God. We try to convince ourselves God is perfect but if he's perfect then what does he need us for? It is imperfection that creates the NEED and therefore the drive to perfect. If you think you are already there; already have everything, if there is nothing you need you will not create.

    So when humans needed a warrior they prayed and sacrificed to gods of war. This is why the oldest religion is not Judaism, it's animism. Religion simply evolved like everything else.

    ...because it NEEDED to.
  • ZealotX wrote: »
    Greg, I enjoy your writing.

    So from the answers you gave I would surmise simply this...

    NEED.

    What we do is a reaction to our needs. Therefore as our needs change, we change with it. Because our needs are dynamic and not static, God changes too. Why? Because we NEEDED him (and not just him but different cultures needed and therefore had other gods) we created him.

    It is the same reason why many people cannot shake the idea of God even when it makes no sense, even when it requires them to believe in magic, even when it forces them to ignore logic, even when it requires that they accept slavery and treating women like property.

    We humans often cannot see beyond our own needs. And so often choice is an illusion and there is only Causality.

    We like to think that we are the effect of God's creation. But God never needed humans. Humans needed God. We try to convince ourselves God is perfect but if he's perfect then what does he need us for? It is imperfection that creates the NEED and therefore the drive to perfect. If you think you are already there; already have everything, if there is nothing you need you will not create.

    So when humans needed a warrior they prayed and sacrificed to gods of war. This is why the oldest religion is not Judaism, it's animism. Religion simply evolved like everything else.

    ...because it NEEDED to.

    And, I yours. Immensely so. Always have. Here's how I'd describe your impact on me. For the most part you keep me on my toes, so to say. Where you're concerned I'm better than likely to keep things "straight" as-in a straight-man in a comedy act of two rather than the act's comic. Feel that? In other words, I'd be Leroy and you would be Skillet of the comedy team that were on Sanford & Son many. many times.

    S&K:

    ^That's^ Part #1. Two coming up. Oh, not S&K, the other part of your commentary.

  • Now..."NEED".

    Damn Straight, NEED. That we can MOST DEFINITELY can agree upon back-to-back! Something like this <-> if proximity makes the point. The "two peas in a pod" kind of agreement. And with the only difference would more akin to Cause & Effect, or vise versa.

    In the world that I maintain for myself along with it's thoughts and such, the very thought would be WORSE than the WORST of all human possibility's w/o some kind of moral compass. In this case, a world w/o a God, Shiva, Jesus, Buddha, (Rasta...their version of the Devil) "Screw Face", Mohamad, and so on and down the worldly religious frame of practices, causes, effects and so forth and up and down the religious line, according to Mankind.

    Just imagine had there not have been, oooooh , just say a 10 Commandments, and that was backed-up by being, entity, whatchamacallit aka, God. Yes, God, and all of rest in the religious/theological universe that had some kind of ethical say-so with one moral, or more, codes of conduct in a world that waaaaay back it was every motherfucker for themselves, PERIOD.
    You know, like if Ootoch want Gaaorp's women, no prob. Just kill that cocksucker and highjack the pussy and take ALL of Gaaorp's worldly shit and keep it moving...and hope like hell another mofo, say like Gregzaak ain't got the same idea for what's now YOUR pussy and property. The short way to put it...a form of social-control from there, to say, now with and up to, The US Constitution. The difference between both? One set of laws now sits in Brooklyn, NY, and the Constitution is housed at the National Archives (main floor, I think) in DC. Just ask JP. He's been trying to steal and hold it for ransom since the late 1980's.
  • I feel you on that. But I think after physical evolution (the obvious type, not the constant adaptation to various viruses and environmental changes) you have more social evolution.

    I think there were simply 2 types of "morality" that have evolved both independently at times and also co-mingled in a way that type 1 would pull type 2 along at times and vice versa.

    Short personal story that's almost 30 years old (since you claimed to enjoy my writing I'm going to put that to the test lol).

    My first real foray into online discussion came thanks to AOL (which is like retro internet now and might have been composed of actual "tubes"). Since I was a Christian I hung out in a Christian chatroom. There were times that certain kids would come into disrupt, saying horrible vicious things, cursing God and Jesus. I was a zealot, passionate for my religion, so I was triggered. However, I expressed my religious outrage through the lens of my Christianity. In other words I was trying to treat them the same way that I believed Jesus would. I was angry at what they were doing, but not at them.

    There were 2-3 who I was able to talk to. If nothing else I guess I just wanted an explanation. You don't do stuff like that without provocation; without some kind of hurt. And I was right. They all seemed to have a story and I thought that if I could play the part of their psychologist I could help them and... 'turn them back to God's love' (*barf*). Don't worry, this story does relate and I'm coming to the point soon.

    I found out that they had similar musical taste in common (Marilyn Manson) and maybe as a result, many were cutters. But since my young self had assumed that they were coming from the wiccan chat room that AOL had (because I shamefully stereotyped wiccans as satanic and just assumed they were all anti-God and anti-Jesus like these kids) I told myself 2 could play this game so let me go to THEIR chatroom and invade their space like they did to us.

    And when they invaded our space what made it worse was the reaction on the part of other Christians. They weren't doing the whole WWJD like I was. And this is not to say I was better than them, not at all. I just wasn't acting on the impulse like they were. And so we have to understand good and evil as more than just the actual execution of the decision but the thought process preceding it. I believe it was Jesus who said that sin started in the mind and if you already thought to do it, it was kinda like you already did it... which is interesting... because no one ever applies this teaching to God the Father who "repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people" (ex 32:14)

    And just for reference

    You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (NASB) Matthew 5:27-28

    But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. (NASB) James 1:14-15

    But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. (NASB) Matthew 15:18-19


    But that's not the point. The point is that I didn't like the "ENERGY" of the Christian room when it was "invaded" because in reality it was showing us all who we really were on the inside and it wasn't pretty. Christians often wear a mask and pretend to be better people than they actually are. Because they consider sin as the unlawful act, not the negative thought. And this is really no different from the laws of the land. The law of the land doesn't chastise you for thinking to murder people. It convicts you for actually murdering people. Again... making my way closer to the point.

  • Without God... people still have a need to survive. The need to survive necessitates the formation of laws to control people threatening the survival of others. Again... cause and effect or simply, Causality. Survival isn't simply binary. There are levels of survival. The lowest levels are poverty and the highest levels are wealth. So to protect the higher levels you need laws against stealing. I wont go through every law. You get the idea. Most of the laws Moses wrote he was already familiar with. It is my contention that Moses wrote ALL of their laws himself and simply told them that God told him what to write.

    This means that 100% of human laws are man made and are, as you said, "w/o God".

    So if God didn't tell us not to do these things then what do we need him for?

    God wasn't used for the creation of laws. It was a scare tactic to make people afraid to break them. Because Israel had no trench coat wearing detectives. CSI: Israel was not a thing. So in ancient times, fighting crime was a whole lot harder and that's why one of the commandments was thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor because they often relied on witness testimony to figure out guilt. And because of that, if someone lied on you they could literally murder you with the state's hands. You could also commit crimes without any witnesses and get away with it because no one could figure out that you did it.

    BUT... if "GOD" is watching you... then maybe you'll think twice. If you are afraid of God judging you in the afterlife (and this wasn't limited to superstition in Israel. We see the same thing in Kemet/Egypt with the weighing of the heart.) then you're less likely to do these things. So basically when you're talking about a world without gods, we're not talking about gods as lawgivers but rather gods as spiritual law enforcement. And it was through fear that people refrained which means they were often no better than the guilty. They just didn't want to get caught. Jesus wisely points out the hypocrisy of this in the case of the woman caught in adultery.

    Fear or Love.

    Fear is a baser instinct. Something happens we fight or flight. Simple action reaction; easily triggered in many people. Love is different. I don't think its a coincidence that in Israel's past they were talking about fear and in their future Yeshua was talking about love. It was evolution. But I see it as a duality in the following sense.

    So my personal story ends with me going into this pagan/wiccan chatroom. And to be quite honest... it was like heaven in comparison to the Christian room. This is what I, as a fully BIASED believer, thought. The people in that chatroom were like angels and they had no reason to be. They didn't believe in my God so how, I wondered, was this possible? My young mind was intrigued and I started conversations and they treated me with the most genuine love, respect, and hospitality. I never forgot the experience even though I've forgotten countless experiences from my youth. And the reason why I was so impressed was because it was genuine and I knew it! There was no mask. There was no pretentious trying to be something they weren't. They had no God to be afraid of, only THEMSELVES!

    When you become your own God... you switch motivations from religion to true spirituality which is about who YOU are becoming; your own personal evolution. When you do this its no longer about fear. It's about loving yourself enough to set a higher standard for your self.

    It's like the people here. I have high expectations of everyone here because you're all great people. When we can reach for our own potential our motives are pure. When we're reaching for someone else's potential or what someone else says we should be or wants us to do, then it's more like we're acting for their benefit. It's like someone calling a woman fat (which I don't recommend) and saying she needs to go to the gym. But chances are, if it's not for her own happiness then she aint going and even if she did... then what? How often would she go? How much would she eat the second she left the gym? Would she ever get into ketosis? Or would she just play the part of someone trying to lose weight and possibly even gain weight in the process?

  • That's how spirituality vs religion is. Religion is God telling you you're fat. Christians don't even fight this. They're like yes, we are FAT (sinners) and only by the grace of God does he put up with us and that's why Jesus died so that our fat asses can die but come back to life skinny.


    NOOOOOOOOOOoooooo. Christians completely misunderstood. There is no magic wand to make you skinny. There is no magic want to make Christian not sinful. It is a choice! The only magic wand to stop them from sinning would be to take away their choice and turn them (back?) into robots! And they are just USING Jesus (emphasis on using as in like a tool) to protect them as they CONTINUE TO SIN. And they have 1 book to read, supposedly from God's mouth to their ears, and as important as God is supposed to be, and as important as the whole friggin plan of salvation to be, life and death urgency, how many Christians do you know that have actually read the whole book?

    They're not about to be skinny no time soon. They're waiting for some as seen on TV diet pill that will just magically eat all of their fat cells resulting in 1 long fart that makes them skinny. They don't have the will to BE skinny. And so they are like the pharisees... "whited sepulchers". Why do they dress up in fancy clothes to go to church? Can they not see they are falling into the same pattern/archetype? Not all. Some are just as nice and loving as they appear to be. But I'm talking about Christianity as a whole. Pretty on the outside but dead inside.

    Claiming the blood of Jesus does NOTHING except to pay for your PAST SINS!

    You are supposed to-nay EXPECTED to- "Go and sin no more".

    Is this what most Christians do?

    No. Because they are just like those Christians in the chat room. It's not real. They're acting because they're motivated by fear of hell and desire for eternal life. But turns out that's not enough to actually make you a better person. It's like someone calling you fat and saying that they will go to the gym on your behalf and that this will somehow help you in the future. You'll see what exercises to do, like they are your personal trainer, and viola! You'll be skinny again.

    NO. You wont. You will only be skinny if YOU are the one who FOLLOWS that personal savior to the gym and you do those exercises because you want to be skinny, not because you think being skinny will get you a fame, fortune, and sex. A lot of Christians are now waking up to being spiritual rather than religious but they're not the ones leading the way.

    It's the atheists, the agnostics, the pagans, the wiccans. It's all the people Christians decide not to talk to because they judge them. But those are the people pushing forward better ethics when Christians are still debating slavery and whether to be pro or con because its in the bible as a pro. There are Christians who literally live like its 200 years ago. FOR WHAT?! Because in their minds that was a better time period. As if they cannot apply the same g-ddamn teachings to 2020 like they did in the 1800s. If you have to create your own reality and live in a "simpler time" (for you) then you are far from a master of spirituality. It means you don't even trust yourself to survive (morally) in the current world.

    So there have always been 2 tracks of morality; one where we know it's us based on human need and causality, and the other where we use superstition to pretend that we will receive a spanking in the afterlife or not get eternal life as a Christmas present for being on the naughty list. But it doesn't work because when you sin, there is no god or angel that magically appears and says "aha! I see you." And that's what parents do when they "correct" their children. If you're not there you can't correct them. And they learn from the corrections and the lack of it. That's how children learn to be humans; how they learn morality. They TEST it by testing their own boundaries. It's natural. And as parents we're thinking about their survival because that's the basis of morality without God.
  • Sounds reasonable on the face of it. Me? I keep it simple. The less I say, the more I'm not tempted to lie and/or try to alibi my way out of it. Most of it is a real-deal quote from Astronaut, Allen Sheperd sweating his ass off on the 1st Gemini Launch.

    "O' Lord...please don't let me fuck up".

    I quote that one frequently. For what? You name it...there's a good chance I've pulled it at one-time or another...especially after I met JP, 'Ceeps, and Red'. Call it a bet, or making a deal. It's a bet that I don't have to fade and break the bank doing it.
  • But that sounds like more of a totem than anything else.
    You're putting your faith into something, telling yourself, reinforcing yourself, to have a higher standard. Nothing wrong with that. Some people pray. Some people carry around lucky charms. I believe in being the lucky charm and telling yourself... don't f up.

    psychologically, it's all the same.
    Reality is that God has absolutely no control over your decisions and therefore cannot keep you from what you're asking him to keep you from. It was always up to you. But by you telling yourself... you are influencing your own "code"... your own neural networking... you are programming yourself not to f up. That's why I'm saying it's all the same. God was never involved in that. It's always been you. And that's not a bad thing.
  • "Reality is that God has absolutely no control over your decisions and therefore cannot keep you from what you're asking him to keep you from.".

    Call it the gambler in me. I'm hedging my bets. It's too long in complete story form as there's waaaay too many cast of characters, situations, and results since I was 18-years old and up...it'll be 30-years on my next birthday in 2021.

    Au contraire. "....God has absolutely no control over your decisions and therefore cannot keep you from what you're asking him to keep you from.". For starts, you'd have to be me to discern that. And I'd have to be you to see things your way, or not if being you, I'd have to maintain your view(s) on atheism. I don't, and neither do you on my side of the question or equation. We're/ at a kind of theological/atheistic standoff either way.
    I can live it that quite peacefully, and just like my best friend and I once went to the dog and thoroughbred race-tracks. He and I didn't bet alike, at all. He'd played all four favorites...I'd play the first two favorites...and three longshots. Myron would hit more often...but I skunked him because winning more $$$$$$ over the course of 24 races in the whole card of two race cards at 12 races apiece.
  • ZealotX wrote: »
    But that sounds like more of a totem than anything else.
    You're putting your faith into something, telling yourself, reinforcing yourself, to have a higher standard. Nothing wrong with that. Some people pray. Some people carry around lucky charms. I believe in being the lucky charm and telling yourself... don't f up.

    psychologically, it's all the same.
    Reality is that God has absolutely no control over your decisions and therefore cannot keep you from what you're asking him to keep you from. It was always up to you. But by you telling yourself... you are influencing your own "code"... your own neural networking... you are programming yourself not to f up. That's why I'm saying it's all the same. God was never involved in that. It's always been you. And that's not a bad thing.

    Now, let me call it this way. # 1 and 2 represent your paragraphs ^up there^'

    1. I won't argue that. Sounds reasonably good to go for me. It tends to work for me. too. That's why it's my frequent mojo, so to say. I'm down for what works on my end of the stick.

    2. "Reality is that God has absolutely no control over your decisions and therefore cannot keep you from what you're asking him to keep you from.".

    I believe you'd have been on to more had you went the above in first-person singular...'I'. Instead of "your", "you" and "you're". Meaning, me. Greg. My mojo is only meant to work for me. Greg. I'm the only it's meant for, well, at the end of the day. Hmmmm...say me and mine, provincially that is. I'm SURE Kat might have a word or two about that. LMAO!!! Back to business...

    The ^"Reality" up there^ Who's? Yours or mine? Or God's? Let's say God's for firsties in my world. You're dead on the $$$$$ on that one! God gives people, whoever goes for it, freedom of choice. Then, there's consequences for choices that are made, too. How? I'm also a fan of Newton, too. His 3rd Law...
    "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction".



  • Reality should be universal. If you want to call it God's reality, go ahead. In my mind no one "owns" reality because even God would not exist if reality didn't exist beforehand.

    So let's just say ("our") reality and if you want to include your preferred deity that's fine.

    So we've established (by agreement) that God has no control over your decisions and that there are consequences for your decisions. The bible does back this up but its nice not to need to prove everything all the time.

    We can also test this fact by offering a hypothesis. Would you agree that if God could control your decisions he would simply make sure that you and everyone of "his children" decided to believe in him and further decided to take whatever steps necessary to represent a perfect world? After all, if the world were perfect because God had a hand in every decision then surely there would be no need for salvation or anyone dying.

    If we establish God is not in control of our decisions then we can basically establish that God is fundamentally not in control of our lives because our lives are a matrix and intersection of all of our personal decisions.

    If my mother prays for "safe traveling mercies" for example... what's the point? Most of the decisions that create accidents on the road are human error or negligence. Even if you consider the cars themselves. If I don't choose to maintain my car then that's my decision; not God's.

    And here is my thing... Because I've thought this for awhile; how selfish our prayers have a tendency to be...

    If God protects me but doesn't protect you... that's not fair, is it? And if God protect Cathy Sue because she asked why does little Timmy or Bobby driving with Betty Joe get punished because they didn't ask? Or driver didn't ask? Or does only the driver have protection while the little kids in the back go flying through the windshield? How does this work, exactly?

    When I was young I was one of those kids that prayed for world peace but obviously that's dumb. I should have only prayed for me because everyone is making good and bad decisions. But if God cannot get credit for bad decisions then why should he get credit for good ones?

    At one point, although she meant well, my mom praying for "safe traveling mercy" for me got annoying because it's like... so you want to give God credit for MY driving? If you're a safe driver don't you deserve credit for that? Didn't you make decisions that led to you being a safe driver? Didn't you develop safe driving skills and tactics to protect the lives of you and your family? Or did you skip all driving classes and just pray?

    I apologize if I seem like I'm being petty about it. It's just that I think religion survives on superstition that we dress up in fancy religious clothing and context. People act like royal families shit royal turds and it's like... NO, they're just f'ing people just like you. It's only how people TREAT THEM that makes them special. Because they've gotten everyone to buy into the IDEA of royalty and their own relation to it.

    And for what? We are basically paying people to be "royal" because it all begins with land ownership.

    Same thing with God except for God is not the one who ever established the concept that he "owns" anything. That's a human concept that we DECIDED (see what I did there) on his behalf. And so we apply this "royalty x 10" idea to God and next thing you know people are giving God credit for finding their keys and blaming the devil for trying to hide it from them.

    You know good and well that those keys were EXACTLY where they left them or where someone else in the household DECIDED to move them. There's nothing supernatural about it.

    And I think that's the point. We make the natural into the supernatural, just by imagining that "God did it". And we're not even giving credit where credit is due. And the not-so-petty part of that is that it means we're not taking RESPONSIBILITY for our own decisions because we're pinning those on God. For example... There are many people who believe God will find them a husband or wife; one of the biggest DECISIONS in life. So why would God decide to have anything to do with that?
  • @Zee...

    "We can also test this fact by offering a hypothesis. Would you agree that if God could control your decisions he would simply make sure that you and everyone of "his children" decided to believe in him and further decided to take whatever steps necessary to represent a perfect world? After all, if the world were perfect because God had a hand in every decision then surely there would be no need for salvation or anyone dying.".

    No, I wouldn't agree, out of hand. I'll shoot this shot, but after a consultation with My A-Game Department. For the moment, I foresee a "push" on this one for us, Philosophy. Lemme go and jazz up this eggnog with a little "liquid courage" and I'll get backatcha after JP twist a couple up and see what else the ganja has to say about it, too. B)
  • Ah'ooh. This won't easy. Different, Like, Simular, and not points made in 15 paragraphs. I can keep up if you can, and to make it easier, let me do one paragraph at a time w/o responding until I finish to paragraph #15 if for no other reason than continuity...and the torrid fact that I've been killin' this eggnog with Jack Daniel's...and ready to fuck...fight...start shit in general...or going for my Roscoe! LMAO!!!
    We good? B)
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  • #1. "Reality should be universal ".

    According to whose reality? Yours? Mine? Any dickhead with a opinion or thesis? Whoever wants to take a shot at it?
  • Still on #1.

    "The bible does back this up but its nice not to need to prove everything all the time.".

    When it's MY ass, or my crews (fam), I call the shots. This doesn't mean I'm dictatorial, but I have a LOT more experience looking out for other people, and MY goddamn self, than she does, and in a war on top of it. However, there have been times I've let her decision slide because the call ws close enough, and I still have the veto options. At the end of the day, I'M responsible for my people. Period.
  • Just a PS. You'd be surprised how many mofos on this site I care about and have dipped in their mix over the years. For one, just ask Triceeps what I did for "Sherry" when she hit a low spot. No brag, just fact. Moving on...
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