The Evolution of Religion

This is a topic that I am writing for someone else who may or may not come to see it. I cannot really take the gloves off on Facebook with all my family there so I'm going to post it here... were I also hold back to some degree but for different reasons.

We were talking about Abraham and he was telling me (from apocrypha source) that Abraham found God but not before considering the sun and the moon and whatever else. That's cool and all, but when you understand the full picture... the full history and evolution of religion on this planet then it gives context to all of these questions. A lot of people I know personally are not ready to go back to a time before their religion existed. And so a lot of people are not ready to face why there were so many religions on this planet and how they evolved, what need they filled, and who profited. So I want to discuss that here. Anyone else is free to join in if they want.
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  • As far as the sun and moon, of course they are gods. You kind of have to think outside the box to understand this. But in human history the first type of religion was Animism. All of this was, of course, driven by superstition. Basically, what we humans don't know we imagine. The imagination is too often demonized like its a child's toy but it isn't. It is a vital part in how the mind functions and solves problems. We imagine solutions before we actually figure out if we're right or wrong. So what humans thought of religions first came down to the forces of nature. This is a little more like "The Force" from Star Wars to some degree. In this we can say that the "spirit of God" is in everything.

    Me, being a Jedi, I actually agree with this because I do not understand God to be a PERSON. That is what we humans created in order to create a God we could relate to and who would do things for us. But the idea that God would be anything like us is, all things taken together, rather silly. We want to believe this BECAUSE IT SERVES US. If God is more like us then that means we can use his power and there is the rub. Whoever wrote Genesis 2 was very wise and right on the money when they spoke about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not speaking from a sense of literal truth, but rather spiritual.

    People seek power at the expense of other people. How we use power is important. So is how we gain it. Easily gained power can be used without learning responsibility. For example... most people want to be rich. But in reality you cannot have "rich" without "poor" just like you cannot have the knowledge of "good" without the knowledge of "evil". It's all about balance but the idea humans have of God is a genie who creates something out of nothing, who can make them rich without them thinking or understanding that if everyone was rich then NO ONE would be rich and so asking to be rich means asking to have more money than other people. Because the term is relative.

    So these things we want from God: Heaven, mansions, streets of gold, pearly gates, all comes from our own attachments to the idea of wealth and power. To get there you're supposed be the kind of person that's not interested in these things and yet the irony is why then would you be rewarded with these things because then the reward is similar to the Tree in the garden. You eat the fruit of religion because you see its "good to eat" and something to be desired! Many people think of it as an insurance police to avoid the punishment that they believe God would do to people who don't believe in him. Which is silly. Do you know how evil someone would have to be in order to kill you for not "believing" in them? It's ridiculous.

    And the fact is that God's not even the one you have to believe. You would have to believe other humans and so God would have to penalize you for the fact that some dude trying to look superior by dressing differently, and using charisma and fancy wordplay, to seduce you into that particular belief when in fact Moses never had to believe this way. So why should anyone else have to?
  • But humans also use division to understand things. We break things down and try to separate larger ideas into smaller ones. This creates realms of information that can be broken down layer by layer. When Early Hebrew came along it wasn't sophisticated at all. It borrowed stories and ideas from surrounding cultures. You wouldn't know this without knowing about these other cultures to make comparisons. For example, the flood story came from an older story. But if you were a Hebrew you couldn't give credit for the event to some other gods. So they rewrote the story and gave credit to their God. Meanwhile science proves the event was local and not global.

    On this forum I also get more into where YHWH came from. Because YHWH was basically a volcano with a little imagination applied. Surrounding cultures had idea about mountain gods that evolved along different lines and that's how you get characters like Zeus. The fact that Zeus hurls lightning though is connected to science. But part of the reason early humans thought that there was a mountain where the gods lived is because there was only so high up that humans could go without passing out because the air is thinner. So the inhospitable nature of mountain tops along with environmental conditions they didn't understand collided to create different ideas and gods were born from those ideas.

    So why would I say the sun and moon are gods? While Genesis speaks of the sun as a light source, that is also because they didn't understand that the sun was a POWER source. The reason the sun is more than enough to power every single device on earth is because it is simply radiating power. The Earth was born out of the sun, as were the other planets in our solar system. The Hebrew word for God is EL. Some will say ELOHIM but there are plenty of times when the plural intensive form isn't used. Other cultures used similar language so EL, IL, OL, AL all are the same term. This is before they developed vowels.

    This is why Aaliyah and Eliyah are the same name.
  • El simply means power. If you have any doubts about the sun's power simply buy a flower and remove it from sunlight. The sun is 91.66 MILLION miles away and its power still kept that flower alive. If we weren't talking about science we would call this a miracle. So even though the sun fits the literal definition of a god because the term god means power, power can also mean different things. Judges are "gods" in Hebrew because judges have power in the form of "authority". Kings also were powerful men. Strong men... we also powerful men. And elohim can be plural or plural intensive which means a plurality of power. So it is sometimes plural in quality not always in quantity.

    The "old gods", so to speak, were representations of primal forces of nature. The "new gods" where broken down even further and this is more so when the personalities of gods started getting applied and gods were personified. But they weren't humanlike because we discovered they were. They were given human traits because we were creating them in our image. So this idea that gods have to be 'people' is a later human invention. Using gods helped us understand the world more because we could see how these "forces/powers/gods" interacted with each other to create different "offspring". This is the real reason why you have priests and prophets in ancient times performing "miracles" and "magic". Because they were basically the first scientists.
  • This is how early science became religion. Only a few elites held early scientific knowledge and they controlled who they passed it down to. Why? Because this could be used to deceive and manipulate others into thinking they were magicians and great seers and necromancers (like the witch of Endor) and they made their knowledge as spooky as possible to keep it away from the average and uneducated person. It was ancient priests who first pretended that gods were real by eating the sacrifices offered to them. These offerings were before currency so priests were literally profiting from people's offerings. So if you stood to profit by making people offer wealth to false gods then you would want to tell people or influence them into offering things the priests could either eat or sell. Since priests weren't necessarily getting paid to be priests, this is how they were making a living. Make sense? This is why pastors and mega pastors ask for money today while asking "will a man rob God?" It's because they are the ones using the money, not some 'god'.

    The more people learn about science though, the more they didn't need the priests who they were paying to help create favorable conditions for their farms or livestock (these different lifestyles are represented by Cain and Abel, similar to Hunters and Gatherers). The priests then had more of a motive to use the names/reputations of their gods that they had built up, to influence and advise kings. Some where even able to be priest-kings. Speaking for the gods gave them great power and authority. That is not something easily given up. When, for example, Aaron is caught having fashioned the golden calf, because Moshe was his brother, his "punishment" was that he and his sons would be priests forever and the Israelites would have to build cities for them and give them tithes and offerings. This made them wealthy without really having to work.
  • Be thankful. More or less. Why? If it wasn't for Christianity, and perhaps other religions, I'm not sure. Anyway, how would atheism have come to being in the first place? Really, I'm serious. How? Osmosis? Out of the blue? No kidding now. What?
    Isn't atheism not the disbelief of gods or a specific God? I always thought so. If wrong, hip me to the stroke, bloke.

    I'll even go this far, and I'm not joking like my usual BV self. Just say where mankind didn't believe in jack shit. Well, and I mean just as far as Life and Death covered everything from A-Z. Life, and then, Death. No more, no less. That's IT. Then what? Sound better, worse, neutral, fuck it, whatever? You suppose Mankind would have better off?
    Oh sure. A lot of Pogroms, Crusades, Uprisings, Murders, Cruificions and such the way of religions having gone south upon The Yellow Gold Brick Religious Roads.
    You think the world and since Day-One would have been better off, or what?

    And please dude, let's have a limit on this one. I just shot my best shot. Let's not make a Crusade of it. Pardon the pun. Habit. o:)

    Greg
  • Greg: You think the world and since Day-One would have been better off, or what?

    Yes and I'll try to be brief as possible but there's a lot that could be said. In fact, allow me to split my answer between shorter and longer.

    SHORT ANSWER:

    Yes, we would be better off because we wouldn't be looking to "upgrade" back to an old version of the operating system. You cannot evolve if you cannot let go of the past. I think that's why the idea that old humans die to make room for newer models is important. But the world we leave behind is contaminated because we selfishly want the world for ourselves; to live forever in a materialistic castle in the sky where we are princes and princesses. We pass along poison fruit to our children because we wont let go and let them survive and prosper in our place. If we did that, than even though we might starve to death we wouldn't murder other people and take their land because they have children that we (the species) will survive through. But the ego becomes the poison fruit. Some Religions (Eastern) work to change this while others (Western) seek to dominate which is the lust and desire of the ego to control.
  • LONG ANSWER / DISCUSSION:

    For an atheist, all religions came from humans. So the "knowledge of good and evil" would have evolved at a different pace because humans weren't being allowed to think for themselves. The knowledge of good and evil is also the Knowledge of Self. Many people think we should have never gained this knowledge but you cannot have power without knowing you have power. The knowledge is just the realization of truth. It is spiritually immature to only think of good and evil based on what your parents tell you. It's like a doctor telling you your symptoms and thinking you know what you have because you know the symptoms. But you have no deeper understanding of the core or root of the problem causing your symptoms because you're not a doctor and have no interest to how the doctor knows these things. It's like putting together complex furniture without reading any of the instructions. Without knowing the difference between Good and evil humans would have still DONE good and evil to each other. They simply wouldn't know better. Because "knowing better" is relative and there impossible without knowing good and evil; like hot vs cold. Knowing this simply means we became aware of it. One person experiences hot before others and they label it. They know it's "hot" because they've experienced not hot. And now that they know hot then they know cold. They are then able to SEPARATE these ideas from a spectrum of everything in between and even the extremes. And because humans learned fire and "fire hot" then another human could come along later and figure out how to combine both. We can even generate electricity this way.

    All computers and all technology would be impossible with the separation of basic logic: 1s and 0s. So without basic logic we would not have progressed, and rather been slave to someone else using ignorance to keep us alive but what kind of life? Is eternal life desirable to you if you're just a machine that cannot make choices? A machine that does its master's will? We talk about free will but free will without the ability to make mistakes; without good choices and bad ones, is worthless.

    Think of a timeline where somewhere near the beginning an author creates the definition, understanding, and personality of God and God's ideas of morality.

    Because God is a representation of humanity at that precise point in the time people at a future point in the timeline start looking backwards to understand righteousness and morality. So unless that author was morally superior, even to the current point of the timeline, because everyone is looking backwards people restricted and limited. They becomes slaves to this author's views.

    In Eastern religions I don't view the same problem because they accept death as part of life and they elevate humanity, not some alien, to divine status. So this allows them to continue to update their ideas because any practitioner is allowed to be elevated, not only find enlightenment, but speak from this enlightened state, to the rest. Every generation can learn new things and pass on this wisdom through the Buddha or whatever their symbol is (they're all symbols) and update their software.

    The introduction of Jesus was similar to the Buddha because any of his disciples could actually assign words to Jesus if they wanted to and you would never know. There are tons of different manuscripts and there are differences between them. The reason why Christians believe in the trinity is partly because people came later and tried to insert more words in Jesus's mouth. But in general Jesus was like going from Windows 3.1 to Windows NT. Jesus's views weren't new. It's just that he was willing to go head to head with Moses (the previous kernel) in a way that finally allowed people to upgrade.

    And it was the strife and friction between the old religion of Moses and the new understandings of Jesus that benefitted all those humans thought they should just be loyal to the past and accept thus saith YHWH as is. There are people who follow religion like robots, not allowing new ideas as one allergic to a type of food. They have an adverse reaction because their minds cannot process that new information. You see its not the idea of religion itself that's bad. It's the indirect consequences of what it means and how it can be used and manipulated. Every system can be manipulated. But with political systems we are able to evolve and that how we eventually got to democracy. But we had to fight the king to do get it (it=Freedom).
  • Without Moses we would have built on ideas of morality the same way we build on science, entertainment, and everything else. Religion is the one area where people want out with the new and in with the old. And people who thought they were following YAHWEH were actually following Moses. Truth is that even children in Jesus time could have told you that slavery was wrong. The only reason people justify it is because they get old and cynical and lose their innocence. They start justifying things based on the morality of the herd... the group... the tribe... the nation. When we don't feel like we can trust ourselves individually we defer.

    And yes... this is why children have parents; so they can defer to the wisdom of their parents real-world experience. But this training should be designed to teach them how to think and make their own decisions. If they still need to follow their parents instruction by the time they have their own children then their children cannot count on their parents training because no longer is training about learning how to think; just learning WHAT TO THINK. And this is a recipe for failure.

    Why?

    Think of every individual as a CPU. Humanity is like an 8 billion core processor but only running on a very small number at any given time. It's the same with the human brain and I don't think is is a coincidence. You have all this brain capacity but how much of it do you actually use at any given time? Especially if you don't push yourself and move towards enlightenment. If every individual adds to the potential of humanity to be great and to have control over the planet in a way that is mutually beneficial and not destructive, then you need people working on renewable energy and solar panels, for example. If conservatives are stuck on fossil fuels then we're stuck being destructive to the planet as a species. And the more we destroy our environment the more hostile we make it in a way that threatens our own survival. So when everyone is told what to think and everyone is looking to the past, to conserve their own belief system, it is dangerous to our future survival.
  • Imagine if there was no Jesus update to Windows NT (I'd even give him windows 2000) and we were still stoning people caught in adultery? It wasn't that long ago when white Christians brought their children to see lynchings and hangings because they wanted to normalize their brutality against us. And for them, nothing in their ancient ideas of morality made them realize that what they were doing to us was wrong. Why? Because the Israelites did it to other nations and God was cool with it. But in reality it wasn't God but Moses and that is who they were following.

    Think about it. There is no reason that Jews shouldn't still be sacrificing animals. So why don't they? Because they use the destruction of the temple and loss of cultural items and such as an excuse not to continue doing what they were commanded by God to do. And with the power and influence they have, if they wanted to do it they could have done it a long time ago. But the reality is that they've seen progress outside of these commands and they like it. Many Jews don't practice or do so in very limited capacity because they realize that religion, including theirs, should have limits and that our modern society has some better ideas.

  • John Steward, for example, says this:
    Religion makes sense to me. I have trouble with dogma more than I have trouble with religion. I think the best thing religion does is give people a sense of place, purpose, and compassion. My quibble with it is when it’s described as the only way to have those things instilled.

    When people say things like, “I found God and that helped me stop drinking,” I say, “Great! More power to you. Just know that some people stop drinking without it.” It’s when it gets into the realm of “This is the only way to salvation”—that’s when I think, “Okay, now we’re getting into a problem.1
    https://hollowverse.com/jon-stewart/

    I think a lot of people feel this way. Some people need the symbol to channel their energy through. Others don't. If others don't then the dependency on it is an illusion. I'm doing way better in life and its not because I sold my soul to some devil. It's because I never needed God in the first place. What I needed was confidence in myself and if my parents would have built that up instead of saying take all your burdens to God... I may have been better off sooner. Believers think the alternative to God is some unbearable state of chaos because God, for them, is the one who provides the order. However, this is simply isn't true and is an idea born in fear and frustration.

    We lock our doors because of this fear. We install metal detectors and hire more police. Our fear of ourselves is a product and symptom for how we treat each other and how we share (or don't) resources needed to live and prosper. The bible never truly abandons a basic capitalist view of the world. It accepts that there is slaves and masters and servants and kings and hand maidens and concubines and wives and all these things when in reality we need to balance how each of us live so that each of us can achieve at least the lowest acceptable standard of life by right of being born human. Until we do this we will always fear ourselves because we are the monsters that we create. No one in their right mind is just evil. Evil is born and nurtured; often even created by those who think themselves good and righteous. The question is simply "for who"? Some people treat strangers better than their own wives or husbands. Why? Because they feel justified in doing so because their moral standards haven't been impacted by the bible to see the error in their ways.
  • @Zeel...
    One by One. "You think the world and since Day-One would have been better off, or what?".
    The Short Answer.

    I'm not sure either way. What I am pretty of sure of is that mankind either stumbled or at some point realized and ran with the concept of Evolvement/Evolution and didn't stagnate at Day-One. Plus, mankind took whatever steps; literally, not to live in the same commune, area, county as we know it now, and this movement kept moving all the way up and around until things stopped to whatever continent and island where man kind resides on this planet.

    "better off" 'cuz? That's just waaay too subjective for me to answer, Z. Like, compared to what? All we; us earthlings, all we have is imagination to go by. Shit! All we have is about 765 BILLION and change of mofos to assemble and count up all the votes. Jeez! That's waaaay above my paygrade.

  • Zorro...

    Part 1.

    "And yes... this is why children have parents; so they can defer to the wisdom of their parents real-world experience. But this training should be designed to teach them how to think and make their own decisions. If they still need to follow their parents instruction by the time they have their own children then their children cannot count on their parents training because no longer is training about learning how to think; just learning WHAT TO THINK. And this is a recipe for failure.".

    I get ^that^...to a point. I'm the father of six. Three adopted prior to marrying-up (and not my wife's kids) and three by the wife. They're evenly split in gender. 23, 22, 20...and going on 16 and 7. COVID-19 brought the three oldest back from college. Hmmm. Can't tell that almost lie. I brought them back...CV-19 was my call and reason.

    Quick Question: How many kids to you have? And how many if any? One would suffice. OK...
    my kids are two-parters. Before a Mother...and after her advent. BIG difference in the first three.
  • Zee...Part 2.
    "But this training should be designed to teach them how to think and make their own decisions.".

    I, and co-piloted by the wifey, still do. It started pretty early-on. The short story on one phase was observing them one by one, then by progressing by groups and individuals, personalities, and by as sibling in total and the interaction with each other, then as individual by individual. Less so on the twins though. Twin siblings is a grouping in and of itself. I know. My/Our twinship is about 150-meters from each other. That's a whole new kinda ballgame, but subtlally so. Their relationship is with each other, first and always. For Life I dare say. A Romulas & Remus kind of deal. Us first, other motherfuckers next.

    To round this off a taste, Kat and I tend to "good cop and bad cop" them all, and the switch on and off, depending.
    The long and the short of it is, and as my mother told me was:
    "Greg, kids don't come with instruction books. Go for what your heart and heads tell you, and any questions that are still around, just as me of your father".

    Oh...also...my Dad then tossed his .02 cents in: "Boy, fuck that Dr. Spock shit. Good for white people...fucked up for Back folks.".

  • Fuck!!! 'Just ask me or your father'.

    And I did and still do occasionally. And, for more on my parents sakes. They like the love and involvement parts, and that's a good enough reason for me and my better half. If fact, Kat brought that up herself a long, long while ago by herself. Before CV-19 popped up, we'd shipped the out separately to both coasts.
  • Zee'mon...

    Pay this no mind...it's just a note to myself for tomorrow.

    When people say things like, “I found God and that helped me stop drinking,” I say, “Great! More power to you. Just know that some people stop drinking without it.” It’s when it gets into the realm of “This is the only way to salvation”—that’s when I think, “Okay, now we’re getting into a problem.1
    https://hollowverse.com/jon-stewart/

    I think a lot of people feel this way. Some people need the symbol to channel their energy through. Others don't. If others don't then the dependency on it is an illusion. I'm doing way better in life and its not because I sold my soul to some devil. It's because I never needed God in the first place. What I needed was confidence in myself and if my parents would have built that up instead of saying take all your burdens to God... I may have been better off sooner. Believers think the alternative to God is some unbearable state of chaos because God, for them, is the one who provides the order. However, this is simply isn't true and is an idea born in fear and frustration.

    We lock our doors because of this fear. We install metal detectors and hire more police. Our fear of ourselves is a product and symptom for how we treat each other and how we share (or don't) resources needed to live and prosper. The bible never truly abandons a basic capitalist view of the world. It accepts that there is slaves and masters and servants and kings and hand maidens and concubines and wives and all these things when in reality we need to balance how each of us live so that each of us can achieve at least the lowest acceptable standard of life by right of being born human. Until we do this we will always fear ourselves because we are the monsters that we create. No one in their right mind is just evil. Evil is born and nurtured; often even created by those who think themselves good and righteous. The question is simply "for who"? Some people treat strangers better than their own wives or husbands. Why? Because they feel justified in doing so because their moral standards haven't been impacted by the bible to see the error in their ways.
  • edited February 9
    It is subjective but based on reason; educated guesswork.

    Ironically, my answer is educated by the bible. When Jesus came along he was BARELY accepted. You have to understand that this was the beginnings of a theological conflict between the old ways, represented by Moses, which set precedents just like Row v Wade, that the Israelites would follow ad infinitum because they believed it came from God.

    Think of it.

    I'll give you an example.

    Abortion.

    Abortion is actually okay according to the bible. It's just that Christians are not Bachelor of Science level students of the OT. They're more like High school level. I myself am more Associate Degree level because I read it due to the importance of it being foundational and had to follow it while I was an Israelite, but did I like it? No. But anyway...

    According to Hebrew law, abortion was okay due to the penalties for causing a pregnant woman to lose her child. So this sets a precedent.

    Imagine if God himself said thou shalt not have idols and you come along and say idols are okay. You're breaking a precedent set by God. Are you willing to do that? Because most people aren't. So the more people believe in the precedents the harder it is to shake them and replace them with better logic and/or reason. In fact we probably would have lost our superstitions a long time ago if it wasn't for the idea of authority that was wrapped up in it.

    When you extrapolate small scale or micro level consequences the effect is cumulative and that is how we can make these educated guesses. Truth is we still see science being doubted, attacked, etc by religion even though Islam actually brought a lot of scientific discovery to Christians (such as Algebra), Science would have had a better start without religion and therefore we might have already gotten to the point of flying cars and space travel if we weren't polluting our planet, waiting for JC to save Christians because I mean... God's going to destroy the whole earth anyway with fire so why recycle, right?

    These views can have a seriously negative cumulative effect.
  • Quick Question: How many kids to you have? And how many if any?

    In my previous marriage I had upwards of 8.
    2 biological
    1 previous step
    4 additional steps, 2 sets of twins
    1 step god-son

    Now at 3 and maybe 5 in the future when I remarry if my GF can wait long enough.
  • You sound like a great dad, Greg.
  • OK. Now, let me catch up to you, and as short as possible.

    "When people say things like, “I found God and that helped me stop drinking,” I say, “Great! More power to you. Just know that some people stop drinking without it.” It’s when it gets into the realm of “This is the only way to salvation”—that’s when I think, “Okay, now we’re getting into a problem.1
    https://hollowverse.com/jon-stewart/".

    ^I get that^..."any port in a storm", go for what you know...like...trust...think is your best shot...can deal with more or less...the best blind (in re duck hunting) and line them up from the back or middle...and so on.
    God's accessible in many ways. Something like the points on a compass, or channels on a dial. Your (anyone's) TV remote. A map. Thisaway. Thataway. A kinda "All roads lead to..." thing. You talk, He listens. But, you have your deadlines, He has His. You're (pardon this part, shit!), you're Trumped, like in a few card games.

    I can ASSURE YOU that the Marines I breached doors and other obstacles to get-to and past with mal-intentioned motherfuckers on the other side of things, that there wasn't a one of us NOT praying like a BIG BITCH to do what we had to do and live through it and get the fuck back home in a horizontal position, and not in a sardine container built for one with a flag on top of it, too. An old practice and concept.

    In WWll and prior, there was a guy named, Robert L. Scott, that wrote a book after the war was over, I think I recall correctly. The book I know is, God Is My Co-Pilot. He fought with the 'ol AVG, American Volunteer Group aka, The Flying Tigers. The crest is between the guy and his flight #...
    kq0n7ecssj7a.png

    The point? God was my backup man (one of two) because the door breachers cannot see everywhere and look for everything that wants to kill you. God had my back. Now, it's my turn; again' to have His. It's just that simple to me.
  • "Think about it. There is no reason that Jews shouldn't still be sacrificing animals. So why don't they? Because they use the destruction of the temple and loss of cultural items and such as an excuse not to continue doing what they were commanded by God to do. And with the power and influence they have, if they wanted to do it they could have done it a long time ago. But the reality is that they've seen progress outside of these commands and they like it. Many Jews don't practice or do so in very limited capacity because they realize that religion, including theirs, should have limits and that our modern society has some better ideas.".

    Debatable, but I get the point. Ever been to LA? If so, know anything about the Fairfax area? Jews galore. We didn't live far from it at all. The high school that serves it; well, back in my HS days, was Fairfax HS. Still there. However, we lived on the cusp of it around Pico Blvd and Carmona Ave. Thankfully, I/my parents had a choice. Fairfax High or LA HS. I/we chose the latter...many of my friends went there.
    I said all of that to say I lived next door, across the street, however, and went to school with Jews. Nice folks in the main. Ate with 'em. Shot the shit with 'em. Even learned a little Yiddish and German with 'em. Couldn't be helped in all that immersion. Had some Sephardic Jews in the mix. What I learned served me well in later years. One, college. You'd be surprised how many live/or lived in Westwood. A commonality of language goes a long way, in many ways. Even if it just small ways. Chit-Chat. Bullshitting around. Ordering food at Canter's and elsewhere. Jewish Pussy...ooooh yes indeed...back in college. Even the Black and White "Fagalas" got there's on. Who was I to judge?
    Moving on...
  • "Because God is a representation of humanity at that precise point in the time people at a future point in the timeline start looking backwards to understand righteousness and morality. So unless that author was morally superior, even to the current point of the timeline, because everyone is looking backwards people restricted and limited. They becomes slaves to this author's views.".

    I'm skipping now and summarising a tad of what I think is a meaty part and in summary. I still have a lot to go.

    One the one ^there^, I more than less agree with you. Thankfully, in certain classes and requirements in one's major can be a class in Philosophy. There was one project or another in it that I chose for a paper/requirement. I forgot which, but it was about "Mein Kampf". Whew! What a nutcase the author was! Anyway...

    ...people chose their own sweet potato pie...or poison. It is what it is. Not much I can say about the right decisions and fuck-up's or enlightenments, whatever, what OP, other people do and how they do it with one, and ONLY one prerogative and that it...

    WTF has that got to do with My Tribe, immediate and extended? Sure, I realize that there's a certain obligation to mankind as a whole, but those I consider as MY PEOPLE come first, period. There's even a precious few people in BV that I consider as such. You can even ask the Headmistress, and she'll give you a yes or no...or the muthafucker's lyin'. For one, ask her about "Cap". I practice what I preach. Then too, there's a flipside.

    BBL: Don't swamp me, please. I still have a way to go to catch-up w/you.
    Now I wanna checkout this Impeachment Jazz on Trump's Ass. I wouldn't care if they strung him up the George Washington Memorial by the balls...and upside down at that.
  • Greg wrote: »
    "Because God is a representation of humanity at that precise point in the time people at a future point in the timeline start looking backwards to understand righteousness and morality. So unless that author was morally superior, even to the current point of the timeline, because everyone is looking backwards people restricted and limited. They becomes slaves to this author's views.".

    I'm skipping now and summarising a tad of what I think is a meaty part and in summary. I still have a lot to go.

    One the one ^there^, I more than less agree with you. Thankfully, in certain classes and requirements in one's major can be a class in Philosophy. There was one project or another in it that I chose for a paper/requirement. I forgot which, but it was about "Mein Kampf". Whew! What a nutcase the author was! Anyway...

    ...people chose their own sweet potato pie...or poison. It is what it is. Not much I can say about the right decisions and fuck-up's or enlightenments, whatever, what OP, other people do and how they do it with one, and ONLY one prerogative and that it...

    WTF has that got to do with My Tribe, immediate and extended? Sure, I realize that there's a certain obligation to mankind as a whole, but those I consider as MY PEOPLE come first, period. There's even a precious few people in BV that I consider as such. You can even ask the Headmistress, and she'll give you a yes or no...or the muthafucker's lyin'. For one, ask her about "Cap". I practice what I preach. Then too, there's a flipside.

    BBL: Don't swamp me, please. I still have a way to go to catch-up w/you.
    Now I wanna checkout this Impeachment Jazz on Trump's Ass. I wouldn't care if they strung him up the George Washington Memorial by the balls...and upside down at that.

    Best you search and see who yo daddy was boy! Is he still in prison? Or yo mama just don't kno? Call Muary and get on dat show da find out! you sorry piece of Shyt! I heard yo drunk azz uncle just might be yo daddy! it's da word on da streets!
  • Lemme check now, Zee. I'll got backwards...just to see if I did...and how much. Go ahead w/your thing(s) and I'll just catch up as time allows...company coming over for dinner.
  • Zee, OK. I got through it all again and making it my second read through. In short, I get it on the intelligent temporal atheist's side. Thank goodness for that, and no bullshit. Moreover, you have displayed a VERY UNIQUE and RATIONAL way of breaking it down to the ground, and I picked it up, so to say, and put it in my locker, or in-storage in my head. That's a fuckin' first, and no bullshit there either. You laid it out in such a way that with only a little tuning, you'd have the beginnings of a screenplay scenario on your hands. And, where I can see in my head where Satan is the VICTIM and not the Perp at that! What a good twist that would be. Jeez! I can see it now...partially.

    Satan drops a lawsuit on God for Slander. Plagiarism. Unlawful Eviction. Back Wages, with INTEREST! Oh man, let me get off this. It's even sounding plausible to me! Oh Jesus. I just had another thought! Everybody in Hell gets on the bandwagon, and now, God's looking at a CLASS-ACTION LAWSUIT!!!
    Shit! I better call my agent today and tell her to call the lawyer and...shit. Won't work. Just hit me...God and such like or similar entities are in the public-domain. Fuck! I even worked on The Jury Thing. God would be shit out of luck. How can one give God "...A jury of His peers"? It can't be people. Oh, ok. God would have to go the Bench Trial Way...a Judge. Fuck it. Make it a mortal, but who? Fuck it again...ME! BWAAHAHAHA! OK, moving on.

    Back to your thesis. It's plausible. Can't be ruled out, completely. Except for one thing rolled into one. My heritage. It didn't come overnight, like last night. I'm not all that sure just how I'd feel, but it wouldn't be a good feeling at all. I'd hardly ever get a goodnight's sleep again for having to deal with Margret and Maggie staring me in the face with a not-so happy expression of their respective faces. Then too, there's Grandpa and his father, Great Grandpa to consider, too. Oh. Margret. Great
    Grandma. Maggie. Grandma. Pop's mother. I could never do it, not even if I wanted to. If I'm loyal to my friends, I'm a fuckin' fanatic about my tribe, both here, and not so in this realm.
    No. Never. Nuh'Au h. Won't be happening. Ever. However, I get your point-of-view as well. Cool. A man of rational-thought and expression. No Fanaticism. No Jive. None of that just-because I can shit. No lies, as I've seen many, elsewhere. No nothing, except a rational discourse.

    I get it. However, I can't and won't get into it. I just can't adopt it, now or in the foreseeable future. It's just not in me. If it turns out that I'm wrong, so be it. I go the way of My Tribe, and that's it in a nutshell.
    Did I miss anything? If so, shout it out.

    Greg

  • Greg, you just made my day.

    Thank you.

    You see... it's not about converting anyone. That's what Christians do (not all, just those who consider it their personal mission to "teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father, son, and holy spirit").

    I'm not trying to change you, control you, bs you, or cause you harm in anyway; including socially. So as long as I know you are thinking critically, that alone makes me happy. And if you had said, "nah everything you say is garbage because you don't believe the same stuff I do" that would be dishonest. But I like you because you are honest and you have your own mind, one way or another. Because I have dealt with a lot of religious people you have no idea how much I respect that. Sometimes it's like a bunch of robots programmed to kill and you feel like the only sane person in the room. I don't need anyone to agree with everything I say but if I make a point that you can agree with... that you can look at and say hmmmmm.... then that means you have intellectual curiosity at the very least and you're not just blinding following someone else's programming. Because that is what it is. It's someone else's programming. We were programmed a long time ago. And that program is typically reinforced on a weekly basis and by most of your family members.

    It's how the Hebrews became monotheist in the first place. Everyone didn't believe the same thing before or even after Moses. If you recall Jacob, who married the daughters of Laban. Laban wasn't under the same religious tradition as Jacob. He believed in other gods. But they were family through his mother. Rachel took idols from her father and he came after them for it. After Moses you had the same thing. Israelite men married women who believed in other gods and that influenced them. So the influences you feel are totally natural and about 10,000 years old.

    So when it comes to you being an atheist, F that. That's not for you and isn't necessary. It's not like there is some God of Atheism that's going to judge you for having a belief. No... all people really need is to keep an open mind. Be logical. Be reasonable. Be moral. I cannot believe in a god that has lower moral standards than me. I can't even pretend to. And then, as a I will show, the reason humans are scared of God? BS. We're going to talk about false prophecies and all kinds of things that I consider evidence against God.

    But why? Because I know how dangerous the Abrahamic religions are to our future. I've never heard an atheist bash Buddhism. You know why? Buddhism doesn't claim to be a god telling you what to do. It's quite the opposite. The bible is a stumbling block and an obstacle to real spirituality. People who believe in the bible often think they're spiritual but its really leaves a LOT to be desired and there are better ideas that you can incorporate. And that's the thing. People should adopt whatever ideas from whatever culture that they resonate with. Because we have different personalities and archetypes and there isn't a one size fits all approach when it comes to spirituality. But this whole idea of following the Israelites religion OUT OF FEAR that their god will murder you after you've already died and on some off chance that the same deity will give you eternal life... that's wrong! It's wrong to use fear to get people to do what you want. That's why its BS and there is no God behind it.

    Honestly, we are closer to solving the mystery of eternal life, THROUGH SCIENCE, than we are trying to bride an alien entity with prayers in ye old English where we suck up like fanatical Trump cabinet members. "Oh dear fearless leaders. LIke OMG you are so like the best and like I just love you even though you said you would kill me if I didn't believe you exist even though this means I have to trust other humans not to lie" . And if you think I'm lying about that there is a scientist with my last name that would beg to differ. We're living longer and longer lives. We're surviving diseases that would have wiped ancient Israel off the map ten times over. They had to deal with leprosy and couldn't reverse it. Imagine if they had to deal with COVID-19. They would have been decimated. And this disease aint given no F what your religion is. If It was from God it should magically target people like me. But does it? No. I barely even caught a cold last year. But people will swear up and down that God loves all of us with UNCONDITIONAL love. It's hilarious. This is NOT how you love people.


  • lol, I said bride an alien entity when I meant bribe. But in a way that works too.
    (see story of the wise and foolish virgins)
  • Oh no, indeed. Thoughts of recruitment never occurred to me. Whatever road I'm on now is where I'll likely stick to it, or amend it a little to the left or right, as well as up or down. The idea of flexibility as-needed dwells within my constitution. Being too rigid either way, does not abide in me. That one left me long ago when I learned about compromise...the hard way. THE BIG BITCH HARD WAY.

    Eternal Life, you say. Naah, not me. I'd pass on it. Just give me my "three score and ten" and some Louisiana Lagniappe (rough translation..."a little something more", and I'm good to go. I'd rather not look like...Greg The Mummy. And now on display. Only 18 and above. The muthafucka cusses a LOT.
  • ZealotX wrote: »
    lol, I said bride an alien entity when I meant bribe. But in a way that works too.
    (see story of the wise and foolish virgins)

    Uh huh. Thy Freudian Slip...betrays thee. Suuuuuure, bribe huh? Yeah, okie dokie. LMAO!!!
  • OK. Now? My turn. First, are you familiar with the film made back in the mid-late 70's, Network? It's pertinent/germain to my thesis. Not the whole film. Just a part of it that runs about 15-minutes. Let me know, and I'll go from there.
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