Btw, Without Religion...

Really, would people become more, less, or be equally moral corrupt? what say you?

Comments

  • It depends.

    If religion wasn't based on a deity then it could have something more like a constitution that can be updated. The idea is that, since you can update it, it can always be current. If you have 10,000 members and 1 of them has a better idea, even that one person, could, because they have a pathway, convince enough people that the constitution needs to be updated or amended.

    I am personally in such a religion.
  • Really, would people become more, less, or be equally moral corrupt? what say you?
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    Several years ago, a male friend of mine is Agnostic, he told me years ago, if he ever decided to have children, he would want them to be reared in a Christian environment, he said if nothing more, they would learn to abide in some of the 'Moral' commandments, eventually learning the , "Ten Commandments" as best they can, it would generally set them on the right track to being a Morally decent person. He said all children should start out with a 'morally sound structured' foundation___like the commandment to children___ "Children obey your parents (in the lord), so that your life may be long___"Fathers do not provoke your child to wrath", those type of moral laws are healthy..
  • So, basically, he, being agnostic, resonated with those moral laws (which were already law in Egypt as "civil" laws). Was he incapable of teachings these things to his children? Of course not. Who here has a problem teaching their children not to steal? Not to commit murder? Not to lie on people? Not to take someone else's wife? etc. These are all pretty much standard social contract in any society.

    And honestly... I feel like it's a little insulting. Do you have any idea how long Africans were around before Christianity came into existed? Tens of thousands of years. Christians want to make it sound like we were savages but many populations around the planet who weren't Christians were isolated and peaceful. They didn't need Christianity.
  • ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Oh, I suspect all things would have changed had he actually had children, last time I talked to him 10yrs ago, he was still without children. The point he was making was ___ he was agnostic, however, he would not embrace the idea of teaching his children to be agnostic same as himself___ he pefer that they learn the about Jesus the Christ as their foundation to start out their life, once his children reached ___ (the age of accountability) they could then make the choice to be a christian or not.

    The world had been in existence for many many years before God decided to become flesh in the form of Jesus Christ, people of all races were roaming the earth without the foundation of Christianity. Christianity was born out of the teachings of Jesus Christ.
  • @basicreasoning
    What sense does it making teaching your child something that you don't even believe and then letting them figure out whether or not the belief is wrong or misguided? Children are very impressionable. The authority and credibility of the parent backs up whatever they teach their child.

    Parent's often think their children are free to make choices but children only choose between the choices offered. Evaluating the choices also means evaluating the person offering the choice.

    My children weren't raised in any religion so I know from experience it doesn't make a real difference to their behavior. Religion often backfires, I think. Because its built on the premise that you have no choices because the consequences are so severe. So you're asking the person to be terrorized and too afraid to think on their own. But what if they lose that fear? What if you can no longer terrorize them with hellish consequences? They will rebel.

    It's better to be honest. Being honest is what teaches your children honesty; not a law. Being kind teaches your children kindness. You can't demand these things. People have to choose to become them. You cannot command love. Love must be genuine and true. Without that you are only a lawyer, trying to generate brownie points by not breaking rules. But not breaking rules is utterly meaningless without love. Surely, you as a Christian, understand this. It is what Yeshua taught.
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    He would have the right to rear his children the way he wanted to, his thought was he wasn't certain whether there's a GOD or Not, so he'd refrain from instilling that same thought process on his children, so he'd much rather they start out with a foundation other than DOUBT. It's his choice should he ever have children.

    Btw, it does sound like your children were taught to abide by your ___Rules. You've made yourself their god. Certainly your children were NOT free to do as they pleased, I can't imagine that they didn't have some guidelines to follow___Guidelines (ie) rules/choices. You're not making sense. The fact of the matter, your children are following your rules__Just like most children follow the nurturing of a responsible parent.
  • ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    He would have the right to rear his children the way he wanted to, his thought was he wasn't certain whether there's a GOD or Not, so he'd refrain from instilling that same thought process on his children, so he'd much rather they start out with a foundation other than DOUBT. It's his choice should he ever have children.

    Btw, it does sound like your children were taught to abide by your ___Rules. You've made yourself their god. Certainly your children were NOT free to do as they pleased, I can't imagine that they didn't have some guidelines to follow___Guidelines (ie) rules/choices. You're not making sense. The fact of the matter, your children are following your rules__Just like most children follow the nurturing of a responsible parent.
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    Adding on to the above

    It's GOD's Kingdom, GOD's Rule/Laws, he's not forcing you to comply, he just doesn't acknowledge you if you choose to ignore him. That sounds pretty FAIR to me.
  • @basicreasoning

    I think you're missing the point. You're thinking only of the existence of rules. I'm talking about the whole system of crime and punishment and teaching things that are false as if they are true.

    In terms of my rules, if I say don't eat in your room, they will occasionally try sneak off and eat in their rooms. They're people, not robots. When I say they're good kids, that doesn't mean that do as commanded without ever forgetting anything and always doing exactly what you said when you said it. When I say they're good I'm talking about their characters and how they behave. They learn more from watching me than anything else and therefore I demonstrate how I want them to be, I don't have to tell them.

    And I've thought about this several times; should I be doing more as a parent to guide them since they didn't grow up in church like I did? But in reality church is an environment in which you're told what's good but you're trying to emulate what you believe to be the character of a man you cannot see because he died a long time ago and all you have is stories. I am a man who is alive. I don't have to tell them stories. They can simply observe my behavior and action/reaction to different situations. But I have never FORCED them to "be good". Do you understand? I don't use negative stimuli to encourage them to be positive. I never hit them. Never. When they were younger my negative reaction alone was enough to make them cry and they were taught that things you do have natural consequences.
  • This is not how I was raised. My mom was from the South. A lot of times when people beat their kids it has the opposite effect. You think beating your kids makes them better people? NO. It simply makes them more evasive. They're still going to do what they want to do. And they are still going to want to do bad things. Why? Because their parent does bad things to them. So them NOT doing bad things would be odd since that's what they're being taught. But what they learn is to hide their desires and bad behavior. And that's why often these kids rebel and they're parents throw their hands up like they don't understand what went wrong.

    What went wrong is that you actually have to be a good person if you want your kids to be good people too. Having rules is not the problem. Society has rules. Even Nature has rules called the laws of physics. So having rules is not the problem. The problem is having conflicting or contradictory rules, not following your own rules, having bogus rules that are strictly selfish or self serving, and having punishments that do not match the severity of the violations. Why do my kids want to eat in their rooms? Because I do it. I am the model for that behavior. And so I don't get mad about it because it's not really that big a deal and it wouldn't be right or reasonable to make it a big deal. Eating in your room is not a moral issue. So they are weighing the convenience vs the downside of having to clean up and the convenience wins just like it does for me. I simply have a higher standard of "clean" than they do and so they understand that I'm telling them this because I want their rooms clean, not because its just an arbitrary rule that I'm willing to hurt them over.
  • Now there's another child I know. She's not "bad". She's just very... "resistant to adult instruction". I don't know about her mom but her dad is definitely a believer. I don't know about her dad by I know her mom yells at her and she probably gets tapped but she's only 3-4. She is quick to tell you no like your age/authority doesn't matter at all. My step kids weren't bad but definitely more "wild". Their mom was more strict and also fiery and physical in punishment. Over the course of 5-6 years I've known them I can say that nothing their mom has done has succeeded in changing who they are.

    And why is THAT not the goal? Why is the goal, for many parents, getting the child to obey their commands and whims? If you give any child a "fetch quest", most will do it, no matter how wild or bad they are. They are willing to do what you want because that's not the problem. The problem is when there is a conflict between what you want and what they want. As parents we often think our wants are more important than theirs. But why? Is that parental ego? Some people treat their children more like little slaves and slaves may not tell massa to their face that they hate them but things resentment build in secret because they are afraid. But once they are no longer afraid and your belt no longer hurts as it once did... then you have lost control.

    I embrace not having control because that is an ILLUSION. You only have as much control as they agree to. That power, over their own lives and future, is something they have to give.
  • Having a deity tell you "I WILL DESTROY YOU!!!!... if you gather food on the day I told you is my day of rest (shabbat)."

    Logically... this is like a parent killing a child for not celebrating their birthday. The severity of the punishment is far too extreme to create a clear understanding of morality. And keeping the sabbath or not has nothing to do with your character and yet the punishment was equally severe. People who keep the sabbath either do it because they don't want to upset God or because they think its good to have a day dedicated to their religion/spirituality. For me it was a bit of both. But I was only able to enjoy it when I could ignore the idea that it was a matter of life and death and I could be judged as a sinner for not keeping the sabbath holy.

    Most Christians don't think about this because they simply decided F the sabbath. We're going to worship on Sunday because Paul taught on Sunday one time in the NT (when in reality the disciples were missionaries so they weren't waiting for their holy day in order to teach or preach) and if we want to work or watch football that's okay because we're not "under the law".

    This behavior alone shows you that Christians don't consider these laws to be a question of morality or character. Because when they think they can get out from under "the law", SELF-DETERMINED mind you..., not because God ever said "thou shalt no longer be judged by the 10 commandments" but because of some loop hole based on their GENTILE status, even though Yeshua said that his followers who weren't Israelites were to be "grafted in". But nevermind that, nevermind Yeshua, just do whatever you want. When Christians don't like the rules they just change it. Who cares what reason the law had against unclean meats? Who cares why God didn't want his people to have graven images. Christians be like "we don't give a DAMN!" Christians even tattoo their favorite graven image on their bodies! It is AMAZING!!!

    I as an ATHEIST... keep more of the law than many Christians. Why? Because anything that I feel like there is a good moral value, I incorporate it. It doesn't matter what religion it came from, it came from other people. If they were right I can respect that. If they were wrong I ignore them.
  • "It's GOD's Kingdom, GOD's Rule/Laws, he's not forcing you to comply, he just doesn't acknowledge you if you choose to ignore him. That sounds pretty FAIR to me."

    Huh? Have you read the bible??

    If I'm wrong and there is a God you better hope that I'm also wrong about his expectations. Because you will not survive the judgment. Why not? Because you follow Christianity, not Christ. Yeshua was a Jew. He kept the law. His followers taught that his sacrifice did away with the death penalty but not in the way Christians understand it. The law not applying to you implies that the law was in error before Jesus came along. But no, the definition of sin is still "transgression of the law". But you have to "REPENT" which means that you have to stop sinning. When you repent your sin is forgiven and Jesus's death pays the penalty that crime!

    But its like a bank robber who wants to be forgiven for robbing banks but he never stops robbing banks. Why do you want to be forgiven if you keep doing it?? If you keep doing it, it means you don't really want forgiveness, you just don't want to be punished for it. If you were sorry you would "repent". You would, in the words of Yeshua, "Go and sin no more". You also can't be a rank robber and say "I don't kill people." You're going to be judged for the whole bank robbery thing, not for murder or the other things you didn't do.


  • Christians believe they're safe because they believe. But they have been misled by other Christians who have been equally misled. If YHWH is real... I'm sorry but all the time you spent in church is not going to matter because THAT wasn't his church. The only way you could possibly escape the same judgment as me (if I'm judged at all) is if you repent. And to be perfectly honest, you would need to convert to some form of messianic Judaism. Or maybe just Judaism because even messianic Judaism is somewhat still wrong but not in a way that would put you at odds with YHWH's law.

    Christians use the whole baptism thing as a ritual of them joining the church but it doesn't carry the same meaning it did when John the Baptist did it because John preached the law and his message was all about repentance. So that baptism was within the context of keeping the law of YHWH. If YHWH says he doesn't want you to have other gods you can't be like "oh look at my Christmas tree". You actually have to change your life and your culture and stop the pagan practices and follow his commands. Otherwise you're in the same boat as those Israelites who he wanted to destroy. But the idea that he just doesn't acknowledge you... you clearly aren't talking about the same YHWH from the bible. You clearly aren't talking about the same God that Moses had to talk out of destroying his people because of idolatry. I know you've seen me talk about how terrible Moses was. Did you not see me bashing Moses because he committed genocide? He did what he believed God wanted him to do. I don't know where you new age Christians get this idea that God is all warm and fuzzy and doesn't punish anyone... I don't know where you get this idea but that isn't the bible. The ONLY difference is that in Israel, God choose it and its representatives to do things his way and they (humans) executed people on God's behalf. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE between then and now is that people are no longer allowed, BY THE STATE, to judge and execute people according to God's law. That's why there is no immediate punishment from God. There never was. Because he commanded the Israelites to execute each other. This is why Yeshua almost got stoned to death several times; because they perceived that he had broken the law.

    So without people executing judgment Christians feel safe like there's no consequences and there's only forgiveness and whatever laws they don't want to follow don't matter. However, according to the bible, judgement is simply deferred. Let me prove it out of the NT.

    1 Corinthians 5:10
    Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.


    1 Corinthians 6:9
    Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    Do you see anything here about "except the ones who believe"?

    No. People who rob banks, rob banks. They would have to stop robbing banks before they could be considered righteous. You have to STOP SINNING to be considered righteous. You can't be like "oh well I'm not a murderer so I'm righteous". Sin is the transgression of the WHOLE law, not the parts you cherry pick. And there is nothing in the NT about not being effeminate. These are all based on the SAME law from the OT and so when people act like the OT laws don't apply to the NT, its just because they don't really study the bible like that. They are simply followers of their religion. But the people who Yeshua (the Jewish rabbi) taught were Israelites who didn't have an NT. So the idea that the NT is for Christians is silly. NONE of the followers of Yeshua had an NT bible. NONE. So the things that were said to them in letters was only to AUGMENT and ENHANCE (not undo) what they were learning from SCRIPTURE (OT) which they learned from their rabbis.

    Christianity is amazing because it almost convinces me the devil is real because I feel like it would take someone of his intelligence to screw Christians up as much as they have been. Because they, like Eve, are led to believe that they can eat whatever fruit they want without consequence. Same mistake. Different day.

    But wow... Christians talking about judgment to me... I just cannot get past how deceived they are to think they're going to be saved. None of that salvation message was talking to people of a new pagan religion. I love yall but that's just facts.
  • edited March 6
    Zealotx, you spin a lot of words dealing with the subject of religion! What mind you, would [you] put in Religion's place, what would you have these folks believe in? If religion is out, then where should they, believers that is, begin get their faith, etc.? What should they turn too for moral support, etc.? Okay, Lets say Christianity became obsolete, "now what?" QQ... Gfb gone...
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